Americans are stuck with a dysfunctional two-party system that works to constantly stymie the kind of substantive political change we desperately need. But that doesn’t mean third parties can’t be successful in some contexts. David Zuckerman, the lieutenant governor of Vermont and current gubernatorial nominee for both the Democratic and Progressive parties, tells Jacobin how the Progressive Party has figured out how to push left-wing politics in the state.

In an interview with David Duhalde, Zuckerman recounts his own political history, the relationship between the Progressive Party and the Democrats, and how democratic socialists and populist messaging can break through the noise. The interview has been edited for clarity and length.